Lots of times, in media and diverse kinds of entertainment, like movies, TV shows, games, etc, villains (even when they are the protagonists) are portrayed in a rather cartoonish way even when that’s not the intention. They are shown time and time again to be sadistic, creepy, narcissistic, malicious and overall very over the top evil. Don’t get me wrong, these characters can be very fun and entertaining to watch, and sadly there is a minority of vile people that act like that.
However in BH, through it’s main character on a particular level, and in the show in general, we are shown a different, more nuanced and in my opinion, more realistic take on “bad people”.
Bojack is a neutral leaning towards dickish person most of the time by the time the show starts. He’s cynical, kind of misanthropic, impulsive and self centred. Throughout the show, we see him reach some rather endearing highs as a person in the form of care towards his friends, sister, and altruistic actions towards strangers like rescuing the seahorse baby, and towards people who don’t deserve that altruism, like his own mother. On the other hand, we also see him reach some disturbing lows as well, in the form of almost sleeping with a teenager, leaving Sarah Lynn to die, and choking Dina while under the influence of drugs.
Most “bad people” aren’t sadistic depraved creeps stuck in “i’ll be as evil as i possibly can because evil” mode. Sure, they do exist, people addicted to the feeling of power over others, or traumatised individuals repeating that pattern with innocents with no remorse. Horribly abusive parents, serial killers, serial rapists, pedos, human traffickers, dictators, terrorists, mass murderers… You name it. Even this show itself introduces us to a few unfathomably detestable people like that in the form of Hank, Vance, Whitewhale, SL’s stepfather, and to a lesser extent Beatrice, Butterscotch, SL’s mother and Joseph.
However most “bad people” we’ll meet in our lives, or maybe people we ourselves might be at one point or another, are different. They do shitty things not out of malice or cruelty, but out of cowardice, weakness of character, impulsiveness, self destructiveness, unresolved insecurities, poor self control, good but misguided intentions… Like Bojack does.
The show itself masterfully states it in Bojack’s interview in season 6 via Bojack himself. Most bad things don’t happen because of evil plots, but because most people are idiots desperate for a dopamine kick (“looking to press that button in your brain that tells you ‘you are happy now’”).
There’s a saying that comes to mind: Don’t attribute to malice, what you can attribute to stupidity.
Bojack is a very realistic “regular bad person”. Someone who is not out there devilishly plotting to ruin lives, but someone who is trying to live his own life the best he knows how, someone damaged and unstable both because of his traumas and his past mistakes, someone filled with unresolved insecurities and self loathing, and most importantly, someone who is not stuck into being “an evil person”, but someone who has the capacity for both good and evil, and whom hopefully by the end of the series, has learned to do more good than evil to others and himself.
Most people aren’t saints, nor they are disgusting evil monsters. Most of us exist in different shades of grey, sometimes leaning towards a lighter grey, sometimes leaning towards a darker grey. We are born not good nor evil, but selfish and craving to be safe and happy, and throughout our lives we learn to balance that selfishness with empathy and morals since we live on a society. Some people fail and remain excessively selfish, hurting other people intentionally or unintentionally in the search for self gratification. Some people fail on a different way, becoming too “unselfish” and empathetic and letting others trample over them. We all need to find that balance, between loving ourselves and loving the people around us. Because that might be the difference between us being someone good to have in other people’s lives, or someone bad.
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As someone working in health care, particularly mental health, BH is absolutely one of the best depictions of mental health in any TV or movie I have seen.
It covers so many topics in such a deft and fascinating way.
In terms of disorders:
- Depression - and it’s various manifestations and treatments (compare Bojack with Diane for example)
- Drug and alcohol use, misuse and addiction
- Inter-generational trauma
- Complex trauma
- Self-destruction and sabotage
- etc etc
as well as treatments - antidepressants, therapy, historical lobotomy
All it took was a cartoon horse and a bunch of animals!
This article is pretty great too.
Bojack feels some semblance of guilt and embarrassment about the things he does, which is completely unlike the mean and cruel people I meet.
Bojack is bad??
Hot take OP.
You can’t claim that Bojack is a morally grey character and that his mother is a villain in the same breath and still be believable. Beatrice is just as deserving of empathy as Bojack and if you don’t see that you’re a hypocrite. The show goes to great lengths to show that she’s even more traumatized than Bojack himself… I don’t agree with slotting her in with other characters who are actual sadistic psychopaths.
In my subjective opinion: Bojack behaves like a bad person. As long as he feels crippling shame, guilt and remorse he’s not evil in my book. I would be happy if he dropped dead, because he SUCKS, and the 1% of good he sometimes offers does not make up for the 99% of shit he vomits everywhere.
Beatrice tried to drown Bojack and to get him sexually assaulted. She is a sadistic villain that tortured her own son for decades out of spite and hatred. She is not as deserving of empathy as Bojack. Her having an asshole of a father doesn’t erase the vile shit she did to her own son.
Also funny that you talk about empathy when in the same breath you state that Bojack should drop dead.
I feel that both deserve empathy on some level. They don’t deserve my kindness or any good manners from me. I feel empathy for them INTERNALLY and externally would choose to cut them the fuck out of my life and tell them to drop dead. Empathy is a FEELING. I choose not to act on it for people who would never show me the same respect.
Both things can co-exist my dude.
Bojack and Beatrice have both done awful things that no person can morally come back from, in my opinion. It’s not a competition and there is no argument either way. You feel trying to drown somebody to death is worse than trying to choke someone to death. That’s fine. We disagree. To me it’s a toss of the coin.
Once again, you can’t pull the “she’s sadistic, she tried to drown him” card when Bojack literally almost choked a woman to dead. Same thing. By your definition Bojack is sadistic.
I disagree.
Both of them do not have true malice in their hearts. As seen in multiple flashbacks, Beatrice and Bojack were both once innocent children who were abused.
Bojack and Beatrice have both done awful things that no person can morally come back from, in my opinion. It’s not a competition and there is no argument either way. You feel trying to drown somebody to death is worse than trying to choke someone to death. That’s fine. We disagree. To me it’s a toss of the coin.
Bojack was on drugs when he tried to choke Gina. Beatrice wasn’t under any substance that clouded her judgement.
Plus I’d say trying to murder your child (that you had already abused for years prior) is worse than trying to murder your coworker/ex.
Both of them do not have true malice in their hearts. As seen in multiple flashbacks, Beatrice and Bojack were both once innocent children who were abused.
“I’m punishing you for being alive” Beatrice after forcing Bojack to painfully smoke a cigarette.
“Uh I guess nobody wants you” Beatrice after Bojack narrowly avoided being molested by a pedo.
“I was beautiful before I got pregnant. You ruined me Bojack” Beatrice to Bojack out of nowhere.
Suuuuuure, Beatrice has “nO tRuE mAlIcE” in her heart. That was just her going through a phase or something.
Bojack was a fuckup that would often hurt the people around him out of carelessness, apathy or weakness of character. Beatrice was a sadistic person full of bitterness for how her life turned out (which was partially her own fault). They are not the same.
“Bojack was on drugs” yeah, and Beatrice is mentally ill. So what??
We also only get Bojack’s side. Convenient. We don’t know the full context of the “drowning” situation. Maybe she thought Bojack was a demon, we will never know… Never the less, I don’t care if he was drunk, on drugs, mentally ill, the choking should never have happened. Period. No one to blame but Bojack himself. There is no excuse for that. If he’s on drugs, he should not have shown up to work.
I’m not gunna compare an older woman trying to drown a 22 year old man vs a 54 year old man trying to choke a 39 year old woman. Not gunna debate which one is worse. That’s fucked up. Not gunna compare a family physical assault to the physical assault of a coworker. Both are fucked up.
As for the Beatrice quotes. We could endlessly debate the absolutely cruel, vicious and utterly horrible things Bojack has said over the years too. Bojack has said things just as bad to the people in his life.
You’re right, they are not the same. Both equally bad for different reasons that we disagree on. We don’t have to agree.
Yeah, we don’t. Let’s leave the subject here.
Wait… when did Beatrice do either of those things? It’s one of my favorite shows ever, but I can’t remember any attempted drowning or sexual assault on her part. Also I disagree, both are complex and broken characters in large part due to their upbringings. If you decide one is worthy of empathy and not the other, isn’t that kind of hollowing out the character into a one-dimensional villain? The show makes it pretty clear, Bojack at the nursing home gave his mom a little bit of forgiveness and peace.
Bojack mentions both of them in passing.
I’m not saying Beatrice is undeserving of any empathy, I guess I’m just frustrated at the amount of woobification and defense her character gets by the fans, whereas there’s a new post each week about how Bojack is evil and if you like him you are a bad person.
Agreed. Its my issue when people say “you’re missing the point” if you call Bojack a bad person, but in truth you are not. Bad people are layered, and at times complex, and no bad person is 100% bad to the bone - nor do we deny that they may do good as well, but they are still bad people. And acknowledging that is the first step to either seek the help needed to better oneself or just take distance - if you are third person in the equation. This idea that we are “Theres no bad/good people, we are just people that do bad and good things” that the show brings up is heavily put to the test in the show itself, with Bojack constantly and consistently pushing the limits of how “Bad” can he get, while still being forgiven by others, at some point he had to be held accountable cause he does much more bad than good, and so he was. Complexity is not a copout for morality.
And I like that a lot, because as much as Bojack tries to be a good person. As much as he tries to improve, appears to improve, and puts-in the effort to improve, in the critical moments that actually matter he is still making the wrong choices. He is still hurting people - himself included - he is still excusing himself. He is simply not good.
Hot take, obviously.
Another “someone is bad or good” opinion
Idk a lot of the posters here are very binary morally. Added with comments playing the blame game.
Agreed. All of characters in the show is pretty complicated but, ironically many redditors in this subreddit are trying to label them as good/bad.
That’s true. I think they did a good job of an “asshole main character” but often in shows, that dickish person is supposed to be the one we root for because of their charisma or because they come through for the main characters or whatever. In those shows, their assholeness isn’t shown to ripple out and fuck over people, we just laugh and move on. This one shows the world reacting to someone like that in a realistic way
Either that or the show makes the abuser an over-the-top dickhead that the audience easily hates. Irl victims of abuse struggle harder because abusers are deceptive and likable in public to the point that people defend them - just like with BoJack.
“There are no good guys and bad guys. We’re all just guys, and all we can do is try to do more good things than bad things”
Diane
Others have pointed out the gist, but here’s my stab at it, with two of the full major quotes in one comment:
ep 1x12
I don’t really think there is a deep down. I think we are just the things we do.
ep 5x12
There’s no such thing as “bad guys” or “good guys”. We’re all just… guys, who do good stuff sometimes and bad stuff sometimes. And all we can do is try to do less bad stuff and more good stuff, but you’re never going to be good because you’re not bad.
These are both Diane, each time succinctly nailing my personal philosophy. Binary good person / bad person is a TRAP. After 76 episodes, BoJack never seems to learn this, often hitting one of two invisible, confusing barriers depending on circumstance or his mood:
- If I do bad things, I can’t be good, so why bother?
- If I’m good, I can’t do bad things, so why are you angry with me?
This confusion stunted his growth for decades. He’s fictional, but this disconnect in our own self-perceptions is commonplace, and so destructive to our growth too that its impact cannot be overstated.
So yes, it is missing the point to say he’s a well-depicted “bad person”. He’s a guy who does a loooot of bad things. He isn’t a bad guy – therefore, he can and should be expected to change and do more good things.
I agree. The show acknowledges that Bojack makes the wrong choices or hurts people without making him comically evil in doing so.
I think there’s a confusion and disconnect that a lot of people have when it comes to being “bad” or “good”. In media, characters are generally good or bad. And the bad characters are Disney-villain evil. The average person, who can at times be good or at others be bad, know their intentions are good or at least not evil, and so don’t process that doing the bad thing is, in practice, equivalent to being “the bad guy”. That just because you mean well or atone, or even just don’t intend to hurt anyone, doesn’t absolve you of being in the wrong.
To those who will say that I’m missing the point by simplifying things into “good people” and “bad people,” I’m talking about the perceptions that people have of themselves and those around them, not whether or not people are actually good or bad deep down.