As a child I was groomed by a man in my village and I see a lot of similarities between the way bj and my groomer acted. Do you guys think bojack intended to do something with penny for what ever reason and groomed her? ( reminds her of Charlotte at an early age/ makes it feel like he’s back in his youth?) or was it an opportunity taken impulsively?
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I can only speak for myself but my opinion is that Bojack was unequivocally in the wrong regarding Penny and never should have put himself in the situation in the first place
I saw this great video a while ago about the subtle things groomers do. They confide in the minor, they make it seem like the parents don’t understand them, they keep secrets with them, and maybe I few other points I’ve forgotten off the top of my head. A lot of people have defended bojack as “not a groomer” because he didn’t “intend” to go after penny. But the thing is, if you know what signs to look for, he does all of those things. Whether or not that was his intention, he is manipulative, he placed himself in a position to earn Penny’s trust and approval. It may be an unpopular opinion but I think he did Groom her.
I think I just learned I was groomed as a kid
So does that mean aunts and uncles are grooming their neices and nephews? Because they don’t have intent to sleep with them. Yes bojack is a manipulative but that doesn’t make him a groomer. Grooming is intentional not accidemtal
I think Bojack’s desire to be the center of attention and have everyone like him led him to do some things that at the very least have the same effect as grooming, even if that wasn’t the intent.
Bojack, especially in the early seasons, doesn’t really know how not to manipulate people. It’s kind of all he knows because that’s the horrible world he grew up, never experiencing love and thinking you have to coerce people into liking you.
And it’s just going to be a disaster if you put someone like that around impressionable teenagers.
Bojack didn’t groom her. At some point he decided to have her as a consolation prize and suggested to take her to the prom, all happened in one nigh. He even tried to back off, it wasn’t his big plan.
I don’t think he was ever working towards a goal of having sex with Penny. I really don’t think that’s what he wanted to happen… right up until he left the door open.
However, unintendedly his behaviour DID effectively groom her. Basically all the grooming check boxes are ticked.
So yes, I think Bojack did groom Penny but I don’t think at any point that he was doing so on purpose or that any of his actions up to leaving the door open were motivated by a desire to sleep with her.
I don’t think at any point that he was doing so on purpose
The dictionary definition of grooming has intent ingrained in it: “to build a trusting relationship with (a minor) in order to exploit them especially for nonconsensual sexual activity.”
…not that this changes the effect his bad decisions had on everyone.
Yes, I guess a more accurate conclusion would be that whilst Bojack never intended to groom Penny his actions exhibited the characteristics of grooming and thus had the same effect on her that grooming would have.
In my opinion he didn’t intend it until charlotte rejected him, but i think that the point is that it doesn’t really matter what he intended with his actions. What matters is how his actions negatively affect those around him.
Functionally Penny was groomed by him and still suffers the effects of Bojack’s selfishness, immaturity and impulsive and inappropriate actions for years after the incident. Bojack is just as morally condemnable for what he did to Penny whether he intentionally groomed her or not.
Grooming is intentional tho. You don’t accidentally groom someone.
BoJack also had a lot of power over Penny. Age, celebrity status, bigger body… we will never know if perhaps Penny felt like she couldn’t say no and went along with it. That wouldn’t be grooming. Sounds like what happened to me as a kid, which was coercion.
All in all, never felt sorry for BoJack in this plot line. He fucked up big time.
Bojack was also a close family friend of her mother, who had been staying with them for a couple months which is another massive power dynamic.
Imo, the episode puts emphasis on Bojack’s inability to think of consequences and self-destructive behaviour that usually gets other people hurt too, which would be massively undercut if Penny actually felt coerced.
He fucked up big time for sure
Ha. The family friend thing sounds like my situation and didn’t even connect those dots. I remember the first moment where I think he stood there debating if he was gonna assault me. Poor impulse control, history of extensive trauma, unchecked anger issues and substance abuse… those are all risk factors for committing acts of sexual violence. BoJack would definitely have let his impulses get the best of him if Charlotte didn’t walk in.
I have an almost identical experience, it’s a horrible and vile thing to go through. I’m sorry it happened to you too. (It always feels so pointless to say sorry for horrible trauma, I wish there was something better to say)
Yeah, everything points to the fact that Bojack would have gone through with it.
Can we talk about the chloroform?
Bojack was not intentionally grooming her to sleep with her, but he did cross a lot of lines and unintentionally groomed her. His immature desire to be seen as cool by a bunch of teenagers, his decades-long crush on Charlotte (well the Charlotte he had built up in his head at least), and the a striking similarities between Penny and Charlotte (the real object of his obsession) lead to him behaving completely inappropriately with her for months.
I think that up to the incident in the boat, Bojack had no intention of sleeping with Penny, he was just a mentally and emotionally stunted middle aged man connecting with someone much younger. His main reason to be in New Mexico was to basically seduce Charlotte, which while scummy, isn’t nearly as vile as grooming a teenager.
In fact, when Penny first attempts to sleep with Bojack, he rejects her, because of the obvious age difference. If Bojack were a pedo or a sexual predator, he would have had sex with her right then and there and justified it with “but she came to me”.
It’s only after being rejected by Charlotte and on his depressed and apathetic state, that he let his moral standards waver for a moment and accepted sleeping with Penny, since in his mind she was probably “the closest thing to Charlotte herself”.
I think that even if Charlotte hadn’t found out, Bojack would have still felt like shit for that action. He is not a sexual predator, at least not in the “maliciously looking for victims to exploit” kind of way. He is just a selfish person who has a tendency to disregard the wellbeing of others when he is on a bad place emotionally speaking.
In no particular order:
- told her she was the most beautiful person at the prom
- developed a code/habit of secrets between the two of them very early on
- pressured her to get drunk
- slow danced with her alone
- Was her date to prom, which is stereotypically when people try to lose their virginity in America
- even the driving lesson itself is borderline suspicious
I do think she was his backup plan in case Charlotte didn’t work. But for what it’s worth Penny was completely on board the whole time and was maybe even aware of the groomy behavior, but I think that’s why it messes her up for years, I don’t think just almost sleeping with an older man, in a vacuum is enough to traumatize someone forever, i think the grooming aspect is why she’s so stirred up. I think she feels that he worked toward that goal for many months. Idk guys let’s watch it again and look for more subtle clues.
Ehhhhh BoJack does seem genuinely shocked and taken aback when Penny suddenly shows her cards (“with your mouth?!?”) I don’t think BoJack is a good enough actor to fake that. He was genuinely caught off guard – and even does the right thing at first.
I do think it’s important to distinguish that Penny was the one who initiated and then pursued Bojack. For all we know, had Charlotte cheated on Kyle that night, Bojack might never have gone as far as he did. When he says Penny looks like her mom, I feel as though he’s just picturing himself with Charlotte.
When Penny asked the third time, Bojack wanted comfort and given the physical similarities, accepted it thinking there was no legal risk as Penny said. That said, when he went to her college to see how she was, an awful thing to do while high and drunk to a girl you already had a questionable relationship with, I reckon that was when he really traumatised her.
It’s not that he groomed groomed her, more so that he made her feel groomed and pursued. As much of an asshole as Bojack is, it never came across as intentional, just inconsequential and stupid.
Idk guys let’s watch it again and look for more subtle clues.
Ok if you insist
Personally I think he was trying to get Charlotte but he definitely set alot of inappropriate behaviors that made it easier for him to make his opportunitisc pass at her.
Idk if he groomed her intentionally, but honestly that’s kinda where the results of his actions led him. I think if Charlotte hadn’t have walked in, he would’ve justified it to himself that the age of consent is 17 in New Mexico and… whatever was going to happen would have happened.
BOJACK DIDNT GROOM PENNY! Grooming is intentional. He didn’t do anything intentionally.
Bit defensive?
Yes. Because grooming is intentional. It doesn’t happen by accident. Doing nice things for someone isn’t grooming unless you have the intent to start a sexual relationship or abuse someone. A lot of people throwing the word around takes away from the actual meaning.
Buying alcohol for minors doesn’t sound like a nice thing to me? That and al the compliments and secrets coming from someone who WAS groomed screams that bojack didn’t have good intentions
Buying alcohol is not grooming behavior, and her friends were already drinking. Grooming is intentional. His intentions were not with Penny. We can make the case that he was grooming Charlotte. But Penny was not groomed. I underwd you want to see that because of your experience being groomed. As another person who was groomed, bojacks actions may not be good. It doesn’t make him a groomer.
I agree that he didn’t groom her, despite his action still being terrible.
He definitely crossed a lot of lines with the alcohol though. They might have been drinking a bit already, but Bojack supplied them with enough alcohol for Penny’s friend to give herself alcohol poisoning, and he encouraged them to drink more. Buying alcohol is quite a common thing for groomers to do though, even if it wasn’t in this case.
We can dicker back and forth over labels and motivations, but that doesn’t change what happened.
And the fact that Bojack admitted he wasn’t sure if he could have stopped himself is both sad and terrifying.
i am not victim blaming here, but Penny was the one who initiated things in a sexual way. i’ve kind of been in her shoes around her age, and in retrospect i made some really shitty choices.
BoJack only gave in because he was rejected by Charlotte. from there, though, it was absolutely his responsibility to say no to her. if it were to have happened, Penny would’ve had a lot more trauma, whether the sex was good or not. thank god (or… the writers) for Charlotte walking in.